Closed Discussion: Prestige Class Removals

[Maiyannah]

Hi there,
I'm considering removing the Arcane Archer, Assassin, Shifter, and Dragon Disciple prestige classes. The main reason for this is that I want to trim the fat a little bit and focus on the core classes and the pristge classes from our own setting we'll be adding.

Arcane Archer is largely fluffy and doesn't really hold it's own. The same is true of Assassin.

Shifter I kind of just don't see the need/use for that isn't already covered by druid, though I will be considering a more thematic Ravenloft replacement.

Dragon Disciple is the one that I'd like to keep for its theme, but it's just broken as is, and results in builds that are ridiculously overpowered.

What do you all think of removing these four prestige classes?

[Maiyannah]

Also though more for setting reasons, I'd take out the Harper and Purple Dragon Knight prestige classes because those organizations don't exist in Ravenloft; those two are probably non-contentious though.

[wilkins1952]

I think that removing them pending more thematic replacements is a good idea. Assassin is largely a nice idea but falls flat in implementation, DrDs are cool but at the same time they are very powerful mechanically and have a very odd fitting, That said I would like to see DrD return in some form given that the RP it generates can be quite interesting. AA Largely needs an entire rework to make it useful The only really good thing it has going for it is +5 arrows.

Shifter I'm on the fence about, I love the class design but again the implementation of it in NWN is bad to just straight up worse than Druid. I think that if we give (Eventually) Druids the options to take more forms rather than just being limited to the few that they are, It will be good to remove it and reimplement a more Ravenloft themed one.

[Maiyannah]

I do like the idea of Dragon Disciple, like ... a lot, honestly, and as long as the player is willing to accept that it comes with obvious problems about fitting in, I'm okay with it, lore/setting wise. Ravenloft is a domain of monsters in one sense, after all.

The problem is more mechanical. It is a complete balance dumpster fire and I don't think I could keep it in good faith without a revision. So yeah, my thought is to pull it until such time as we can re-evaluate it.

[Ouroboros]

Going through the list of the PRCs I have opinions on;

Arcane Archer - This one is mechanically anemic and narratively weird. The racial restrictions always came off as pretty needlessly restrictive; if one really wanted to maintain the link to Elven culture I'd simply expand it to requiring a character to have tutelage from an existing Arcane Archer instead, to pass down cultural heritage and traditions. But mechanically the class is severely hamstrung by the NWN chronic treatment of abilities used per rest. If AA were to be kept, I think it's abilities would necessarily need to be swapped to a cooldown measured in minutes rather than the 1/rest type nonsense.

Assassin - This one is largely a meme for high lethality builds. Mechanically it's fairly mid and narratively it's just too niche/inclined towards edgy characters. Truly effective assassins just poison people's food or garrote them in their sleep, rather than stabbing people. Most worthwhile implementations of Assassin I've seen again rely on swapping to cooldown-based abilities rather than rest-based and giving them an earnest spellbook with actual progression, which is a lot of work.

Harper Scout - Genuinely terrible class; a rare case of being better narratively than mechanically in NWN. Harper lore is borderline interesting, but since they're completely a non-entity in Ravenloft the class makes no sense to exist here, unless TOUD cared enough to create a bespoke splinter organisation of Harpers abducted from Forgotten Realms whom somehow manage to find one-another and form a new offshoot within the Demiplane of Dread. Even if that's the case; the class is just bad. You'd have to spend more time remaking the class from the ground up, at which point you'd have been better served just adapting one of the numerous other classes that have better mechanics and narrative levers behind them.

Pale Master - This one is probably contentious, but to me it's an extremely weird class that is inherently hamstrung by an incomplete implementation in NWN. This class originates from the 3.x Libris Mortis and what a lot of people miss is that the Libris Mortis includes a slew of additional Undead Grafts which, while not explicitly tied to the Pale Master, are pretty much assumed to be career upgrades/goals for them. Narratively it's a weird class, mechanically it swings between being largely useless in the hands of casters and being absolutely bullshit in the hands of martials. Bin it, replace it with a straight Necromancer if we're opening the doors to drinking the evil kool-aid.

Dragon Disciple - This one feels like it brings in too many issues to be worth implementing. Juice isn't worth the squeeze. There's precisely one (two if you consider Dread Possibilities) dragon in all of Ravenloft, therefore the source of Dragon Disciples would be exclusively Outlanders with Draconic heritage abducted into the Demiplane. Unlikely, but possible. If implemented I'd rather see Dragon Disciple's progression dip into borderline body horror; a Draconic Caliban treatment where the character certainly becomes more mechanically powerful, but because they're intentionally feeding into that Draconic heritage it's unleashing all of the worst properties of Dragons, courtesy of the Dark Powers.

Shifter - I've never seen this class used as anything other than the stereotype of particular kinds of players whom want to LARP as various weird creatures, in a very tourist manner. As such, I'm highly biased against the class in the same vein as I am biased against playable Kobolds in any capacity; they just seem to overwhelmingly attract a particular kind of person I view in a negative sense.

Purple Dragon Knight - Again, similar to the Harpers, but arguably even worse for TOUD implementation. We're not allowing mounts, so that's already gutted the class mechanically. Narratively, again, it's an extremely exclusive club from precisely one armpit region of one setting. I've seen adaptations of this class that lean into it's 'commander/support' aspect and convert it into a walking party buff aura machine, but again there's better options for that avenue to be had and you'd be essentially making the class from scratch at that point.

[Maiyannah]

Arcane Archer - This one is mechanically anemic and narratively weird. The racial restrictions always came off as pretty needlessly restrictive; if one really wanted to maintain the link to Elven culture I'd simply expand it to requiring a character to have tutelage from an existing Arcane Archer instead, to pass down cultural heritage and traditions. But mechanically the class is severely hamstrung by the NWN chronic treatment of abilities used per rest. If AA were to be kept, I think it's abilities would necessarily need to be swapped to a cooldown measured in minutes rather than the 1/rest type nonsense.

Arcane Archer being elven only is just weird no two ways about it. It smacks of "me too" thinking trying to make an "elven racial prestige class" in the same way that dwarven defender is for dwarves but lacks a flair that makes it distinctively elven and the mechanics are lukewarm at best. Frankly, I'd just axe it entirely, myself. Cooldown based abilities are a fair performance drain on the server - and if we trust clients it will be exploitable.

Harper Scout - Genuinely terrible class; a rare case of being better narratively than mechanically in NWN. Harper lore is borderline interesting, but since they're completely a non-entity in Ravenloft the class makes no sense to exist here, unless TOUD cared enough to create a bespoke splinter organisation of Harpers abducted from Forgotten Realms whom somehow manage to find one-another and form a new offshoot within the Demiplane of Dread. Even if that's the case; the class is just bad. You'd have to spend more time remaking the class from the ground up, at which point you'd have been better served just adapting one of the numerous other classes that have better mechanics and narrative levers behind them.

Yes. I should say, I'm not against organization-based prestige classes, the Ezrans are going to have Anchorite of the Mists for example, and dev time permitting I would even consider doing them for orgs from outside of the demiplane or long-running player factions if there's enough player interest, but in and of itself Harper Scout is just a tepid class and any implementation of a Harper-centric class would be so different as to make this one mostly moot.

Pale Master - This one is probably contentious, but to me it's an extremely weird class that is inherently hamstrung by an incomplete implementation in NWN. This class originates from the 3.x Libris Mortis and what a lot of people miss is that the Libris Mortis includes a slew of additional Undead Grafts which, while not explicitly tied to the Pale Master, are pretty much assumed to be career upgrades/goals for them. Narratively it's a weird class, mechanically it swings between being largely useless in the hands of casters and being absolutely bullshit in the hands of martials. Bin it, replace it with a straight Necromancer if we're opening the doors to drinking the evil kool-aid.

Yeah, I'd agree, this one I'd rather see either implemented fully as per tabletop, or replaced by Ravenloft's own Necromancer (which will happen at some point anyways, I think) - but given it's not as terribly out of line as the others, I'm okay with leaving it in for now. I don't know. Further meditation required.

Dragon Disciple - This one feels like it brings in too many issues to be worth implementing. Juice isn't worth the squeeze. There's precisely one (two if you consider Dread Possibilities) dragon in all of Ravenloft, therefore the source of Dragon Disciples would be exclusively Outlanders with Draconic heritage abducted into the Demiplane. Unlikely, but possible. If implemented I'd rather see Dragon Disciple's progression dip into borderline body horror; a Draconic Caliban treatment where the character certainly becomes more mechanically powerful, but because they're intentionally feeding into that Draconic heritage it's unleashing all of the worst properties of Dragons, courtesy of the Dark Powers.

There actually a handful, but the others are in questionably-canon stuff from the writers outside of the canon Ravenloft books. But that doesn't change that the mechanical benefits of this class are unreal and it needs retooling before it can be considered. I actually want to keep it for exactly the reason you mention though; that kind of transformation body horror is one of the classic horror gotos, so it would be a thematic and interesting thing if we didn't play it straight, as it were.

Shifter - I've never seen this class used as anything other than the stereotype of particular kinds of players whom want to LARP as various weird creatures, in a very tourist manner. As such, I'm highly biased against the class in the same vein as I am biased against playable Kobolds in any capacity; they just seem to overwhelmingly attract a particular kind of person I view in a negative sense.

Yeah, the class itself is very middling, and the RP is more or less superceded by Druid. I'm fine with yeeting this one. There are some ravenlofty druid takes I'd like to explore, but this isn't one of them, nor close enough to any of them to be worth trying to save.

Purple Dragon Knight - Again, similar to the Harpers, but arguably even worse for TOUD implementation. We're not allowing mounts, so that's already gutted the class mechanically. Narratively, again, it's an extremely exclusive club from precisely one armpit region of one setting. I've seen adaptations of this class that lean into it's 'commander/support' aspect and convert it into a walking party buff aura machine, but again there's better options for that avenue to be had and you'd be essentially making the class from scratch at that point.

The same comment about organization based prestige classes applies here. Moreover, this one is built around mounted combat as you mention, so it's a non-starter. I've actually already removed it for that reason (though it we really wanted any removed class back, I should add that I've removed them in such a way it's painless to add them back in.)

[Maiyannah]

Given we have good consensus about everything but Pale Master, I have gone ahead and removed these in the latest Release Candidate for 0.1.22

Pale Master will remain pending the results of the rework thread.

To be clear, this means our current remaining "vanilla" prestige classes are Dwarven Defender, Weaponmaster, Shadowdancer, and then Pale Master.

If you have cases to make for the first three, I'm all ears, but I think those PrCs are fine, personally.