Open Discussion: Monster PCs

[Maiyannah]

Hi all,
I'm unsure where even to start this discussion off, but I thought it would be good to work through our thoughts on monstrous PCs, how we want to handle them - if we even want to, and how to implement it mechanically.

Personally, I think monstrous PCs would be a boon to the server when played well, since they can essentially create scenes when a DM isnt around that are captivating to the players. But I don't actually have experience with playing them in the context of a PW, so I welcome thoughts that come from the experience of others especially.

[wilkins1952]

MPCs are a good addition to a PW. I think having them is a wonderful idea, Though they should be a touch more restricted than PCs in some areas with the advantage of having a few more tools in others.

1. Give MPCs an OOC area where they can buy gear/Consumables for free essentially removing their need to have to stock up like regular PCs.

2. MPCs should be friendly to all NPC hostiles and have limited ability to control and manipulate them, So they can enter dungeons and the like to run scenes and such. Though they should be as a rule forbidden from dungeoning. Being a purely RP option

3. MPCs should be given tools to create RP items and scenes perhaps even limited ability to interferre with area effects such as spawn some VFXs and such.

Other than that MPCs should be application to get, Though more again as a sanity check this can also be used to determine what level/Classes they start as so they can be a threat. Without being overpowered, Then grant them every X weeks a new level or so to keep them competitive. I suggest a starting level of 15 though perhaps in some domains that could be higher to account for the fact that is a more dangerous domain. Think Barovia compared to Bleutspur 15 in Barovia 25 in Bleutspur.

[Maiyannah]

2. MPCs should be friendly to all NPC hostiles and have limited ability to control and manipulate them, So they can enter dungeons and the like to run scenes and such. Though they should be as a rule forbidden from dungeoning. Being a purely RP option

I am actually going to have a hot take here and say: I don't mind if MPCs dungeon, so long as it makes sense for their character. They would probably be added to an appropriate faction for their group - say a particular bloodline of vampires - and that would allow them certain allies and certain enemies. A different group from the PCs, of course.

A MPC is, ultimately a player whom is a monster. They are going to do evil things, and that often includes competition with other creatures of the night. The Church of Ezra may see the Legion as a unified force of evil, but it is very rarely actually so. As such, I could see a vampire, for instance, trying to clear out a rival clan/family/bloodline/wtfever of vampires, and that would make narrative sense.

Moreover, this creates situations where a monstrous PC is going to be in competition with the PCs for resources, which drives further conflict and thus, story.

The problem becomes: as has come up a few times now, when they're just doing it for the sake of mechanics, this is to the detriment of the shared narrative. I am of the opinion that a MPC can dungeon, but they should be able to justify their dungeoning in the diagetic sense of what their character would do. I would not be happy if someone just told me "I want teh eckpeez" for instance. I would definitely view vampires doing dungeons below their ECL with a jaundiced eye, but I would rather leave doors that can lead to good RP open, then close them for the fear of abuse. As a guiding principle, I prefer to deal with problem players, rather than make rules that restrict everyone, because of a single individual.

As another point: I also am not entirely against the idea of good-aligned MPCs, because the whole thing isn't about being a saturday morning cartoon villain, indeed, the Van Richten's Guide to Vampires details the process as more a slow decline of virtue, as they become more and more disconnected from mortals. Such a story of descending down the spiral of corruption and vice is much more compelling, and I dare to say, much more "gothic horror", than some mustache-twirling comic book villain that sometimes they are essentially asked to be elsewhere.

There is a line here, but a MPC is essentially given a position of trust: trust that they won't abuse the template for its mechanical advantages, and trust that they will further the story, and trust that they will be responsible and respectful of the setting in writing it.

3. MPCs should be given tools to create RP items and scenes perhaps even limited ability to interferre with area effects such as spawn some VFXs and such.

Creating RP items is something I'm going to build a system for and I will make a thread for it at some point. It will basically be a ticket system of making requests for customisations. We can make it so MPCs are auto-accepted in the system and the tickets are just kept as an "audit trail" to record any abuse, I would be OK with that.

Other than that MPCs should be application to get, Though more again as a sanity check this can also be used to determine what level/Classes they start as so they can be a threat. Without being overpowered, Then grant them every X weeks a new level or so to keep them competitive. I suggest a starting level of 15 though perhaps in some domains that could be higher to account for the fact that is a more dangerous domain. Think Barovia compared to Bleutspur 15 in Barovia 25 in Bleutspur.

I prefer most MPCs to be something that happens out of a story. Livu's lover Nytassia being stricken for example. This gives players "skin in the game" - they care more about what happens to that MPC, they have the conflict of the existential angst over whether to slay them, etc etc. This also alleviates administrative burden of applications.

For players starting as a MPC, I would propose they can just pitch it here on the forums, and if people think that MPC sounds good, we can get them set up. While it does take some of the mystery out of the MPC, I think that its better the community as a whole has a say rather than it being a behind closed doors dev/DM thing. We could perhaps make the forum hidden by default and players interested in having it "spoiled" for them can be booped in.

[Ouroboros]

I ultimately think that aping the AMPC/MPC system found elsewhere is constraining us to the same issues found elsewhere. Instead, I'd suggest implementing a DM-Lite Storyteller role that has elevated tools, but without requiring a player to learning all of the tools available via the DM Client. Make it an application gated process where players have shown themselves to be of a responsible track record and give them a variety of various scripted tools that promote some autonomy.

Tools would include a limited 'item spawning' palette that allows them to create a number of droppable objects that they can freely rewrite the names/descriptions of, an area-wide emoting function with guidelines of use, perhaps some limited NPC control functions for spawning in low level threat enemies like zombies, bandits, etc. Make it optional for them to bind themselves to playing as an antagonistic character which may or may not be monstrous in nature; Ravenloft has a number of monstrous creatures, but it also has no lack for bandit gangs or outlaws. If we give a wider framework and allow people to pursue these roles, it avoids a number of pitfalls; players being exceedingly attached to their (A)MPCs and reluctant to allow them to die even when their story is played out for example. It also opens up the doors for people to dip their toes in the water, seeing how they like the role of being a narrator before perhaps committing to a full blown DM role.

I've seen this system implemented in other venues, such as a 'Weaver' role as a DM-Lite on private WoW RP servers in the past and it worked very well for encouraging people to take up playing smaller roles without having the same attendant responsibilities of being a full blown DM; this way people could choose to either continue playing their PC of choice, or occasionally pitch hit on running mini-plots for people.

[Maiyannah]

I have to say I am rather firmly opposed to anything which requires an application process, myself, for a variety of reasons. There are a number of attendant problems it causes, most practically for a server of our size, but indeed of any size, is it takes time away from DMs who should be running scenes and furthering story arcs, and sinks it into administrata. This is why I advocate for MPCs coming out of roleplay. It does somewhat limit options, but it eliminates the need for the bureaucracy - a bureaucracy that I have little doubt if left long enough and if we get enough players, will invariably and inevitably become corrupt.

[Ouroboros]

Application process included or not, I still stand by my opinion that instead of implementing MPCs, implementing mini-DMs/storyteller roles is a more rewarding undertaking, since it achieves the same thing as having MPCs, but with even more options on the table.

[Maiyannah]

Well yes, but that's a separate discussion from allowing monstrous templates, frankly. I can conceive of ones that don't have these tools and ones that do, dependent on the level of trust we place in the player.

[Ouroboros]

All depends on implementation. Monstrous Templates should be given tools such as I mentioned anyway, IE some ability to spawn custom items and manipulate NPCs, etc, so they're not entirely toothless in the narrative.

[Maiyannah]

Oh, if we implement the templates as at all described in the Van Richten's guide, they're anything but toothless. They're so powerful that the VRG warns that player vampires shouldn't happen, in fact.

I'm not so sternly against this, obviously, but I would seperate the tools out from the template. A monster PC is just that, a monster PC. One might be a lone danger, not much different from a hostile player with a series of supernatural advantages - others might be more organized, with minions, resources, maybe even land.

It makes diagetic sense as well as administrative sense that the two are not intrinsically linked.

[Ouroboros]

When I say 'toothless in the narrative', I'm referring to their ability to influence the world around them in meaningful ways, not the mechanical threat they represent.