[Open Discussion] "Class Paths" proposal

[Maiyannah]

One of the thing I'm realizing as I work on the "paths" for the Dragonfire Adept is we could use a "paths" system to consolidate similar classes together and somewhat avoid bloat.

This would require some significant backend development to make it work, so before I go on that path on my lonesome, I thought I might see what you all think of it beforehand.

I would NOT be making class changes per se, but doing this as paths that are taken at level one does mean that there will be some slightly advantaged and some slightly disadvantaged classes as they're folded into a single class.

I would propose it be condensed as the following:

• Warrior - "pure melee"
  • Path of the Barbarian
  • Path of the Fighter
  • Path of the Monk
• Swordbinder - "melee/magic hybrid"
  • Path of the Bard
  • Path of the Blackguard
  • Path of the Beguiler
  • Path of the Hexblade
  • Path of the Paladin
  • Path of the Ranger
• Thief - "sneaks and ne'er-do-wells"
  • Path of the Artificier
  • Path of the Expert
  • Path of the Factorum
  • Path of the Rogue
• Invoker - "ie, these guys use invocations, not normal spellcasting"
  • Path of the Dragonfire Disciple - we can break this down further by the dragon type
  • Path of the Warlock - we can also break this into pacts
• Mage - "spellbook using arcane casters"
  • Path of the Necromancer
  • Path of the Wizard
• Magician - "spontaneous arcane casters"
  • Path of the Sorcerer
  • Path of the Warmage
• Priest - "spellbook using divine casters"
  • Path of the Cleric
  • Path of the Druid
  • Path of the Shaman
  • Path of the Healer
• Acolyte - "spontaneous divine casters"
  • Path of the Favoured Soul - I'd like to rename that, the favourtism angle encourages messy special snowflake RP
  • Path of the Mystic
  Considerations
  ----
  
  Hit Dice
  The hit dice for any given class can be changed by the path feat (same sort of mechanism as toughness, we give them +x per level) - so we would take the lowest hit dice in the bracket, and then taking the path feat would apply the proper adjustment retroactively, just like toughness.
  
  Spell lists
  We can apply the spell lists through making them domain spells tacked to a specific "domain" thats actually the class's list. This is possible, I've seen it on other PWs, but I do not know what is involved in doing it.
  
  Special Abilities
  Class features can be given as free feats at a given level, we just check if you have X class on levelup script completion, and dump it in after. Only real programming consideration here is making sure we retcon away those free feats on a relevel/remake - part of why I want to have classes and stuff solid before I consider that kind of mechanic.
  
  Class requirements for items
  I am actually not a fan of class specific requirements for an item, so I consider this a nonissue. In the cases where we do want class requirements, we can use a Feat Requirement for the path. In the cases where its like "divine spellcasters" we can just do the two base classes. A fringe benefit here is you don't have to scroll down a list of like 10 lines thats "every divine caster" for such items.
  
  Multi-classing
  Now there's a few approaches we can take with this:
  
  1] We can allow them to take up additional "paths" as a regular feat. This consumes a feat but allows them to multiclass freely without any further intervention. Its worth considering this would curb the idea of "class dips" (To put my flag in the sand here, this is the option I'd personally prefer.)
  
  2] We can allow them to take the path feats as free bonus feats. I would put what limits we care to have on this, but this is quite possible. This is a little more complicated, we'd have to script away exploits - but very doable.
  
  3] We can allow them to submit a request for the additional path through the DM tickets sytem. It can be automated so that when the DM approves it gets applied on next login. I think but am not certain, that they can be applied if you're logged on too, immediately. This is the "safest" system in terms of us collectively avoiding exploits - but it would not be right away.
  
  4] We can only allow multi-classing between the base classes. This would be the default if we took no other action, but I would find this overly restrictive.
  
  ---
  
  What do you think? This takes 25 classes and compresses them to 8 so it makes things much less cluttered. I find on places with a ton of classes, choice paralysis can be a real problem for some players, and this ameliorates it without actually losing the diversity of abilities here.

[GuardianTai]

I really like this take. I'm sure others will have more input. But I have only one NwN server to compare to, and this is infinitely better. Even with the FS being condensed into one of them. Which is honestly my fave class.

[wilkins1952]

I think overall this is a good idea, However the big test would be more to see how it handles people attempting to break it. I can't see any major issues currently but I'm sure there are a few cases where exploits can be found it's a case then of how to deal with them. I do also have a slight concern that this might lead to a situation where there is always seen to be a "Best Path within the class" Due to some getting the short end of the stick.

[Maiyannah]

One of the benefits to doing it this way is each of the paths can be coded in such a way that all the (sub-)class specifics are kept in the scripts, so it is a lot easier to modify going forward.

We could even have DM levers to give players an advantage or disadvantage, take away or give additional abilities, on a temporary basis, but that'd be something to add after.

[Maiyannah]

I think I will go forward with this for at least the "mundane" classes: fighter/monk/barbarian will fold into "warrior" (and have feats you can select for different class stuff), and artificer/expert/factorum/rogue will fold into "expert" (same name as one, but containing all three).

The "subclass" or "path" (I prefer calling it a path) will be selected by choosing a feat at level one. Class abilities will then be added by the levelup script at the end of levelling for the appropriate level.

This means two concessions: Hit points will be normalized, and skill points will be normalize, for the "base class"

I propose that "warrior" gets d10 (and barbarian given some concession for not getting d12) and 4+int bonus skill points, while "expert" gets d6 and 8+int bonus skill points. This is the rogue bonus, but the other paths need a bit of a buff anyways.

I think this works, but let me know if you have any thoughts.

At present I'm going to set up the base classes as follows:

Adept - "spontenous divine casters" - for now this will be equivalent to Favoured Soul
Expert - "sneaks and ne'er-do-wells" - for now this will be equivalent to Rogue
Invoker - "ie, these guys use invocations, not normal spellcasting" - we don't have an invoker class right now but it'll be a placeholder
Mage - "spellbook using arcane casters" - for now this will be equivalent to wizard
Magician - "spontaneous arcane casters" - for now this will be equivalent to sorcerer
Priest - "spellbook using divine casters" - for now this will be equivalent to cleric
Spellblade - "melee/magic hybrid" - for now this will be equivalent to bard
Warrior - "pure melee" - for now this will be equivalent to fighter

[Talis]

If you were going to do this, giving Barbarians a unique 'Tough' esque feat would help sort out the d12 issue at least.

Personally I don't mind the many-varied approach normally taken, so I wouldn't do this unless it is worth the effort (as a non developer, it sounds like a lot of work.) I don't understand the benefit of it per se, which is why I didn't reply originally as I felt I'd missed something. I've never really felt choice paralysis or worried about clutter with this stuff, so my perspective might be skewed!

[Maiyannah]

Actually isn't hard, nor a lot of effort. Maybe 2-3 days work. The real rubber hitting the road here is in testing, but that's the same for any systems change.

I prefer it personally because it's going to make classes (or at least "paths" now) a lot easier to balance as it distills the difference down to their special abilities.

[Aurelia Haeryn]

I think this works, but let me know if you have any thoughts.

I think it makes a lot of sense, it cuts down on a lot of upfront fluff without losing anything. It also leaving you room for expansion or to fiddle with stuff further down the line without making a massive upheaval of things.

[Maiyannah]

I think it makes a lot of sense, it cuts down on a lot of upfront fluff without losing anything. It also leaving you room for expansion or to fiddle with stuff further down the line without making a massive upheaval of things.

Yeah, this lets us be more judicious in pulling stuff from all the splatbooks without it becoming overwhelming for the average player.

[Maiyannah]

Proposed class skills:

• Adept:
  Alchemy, Balance, Carpentry, Concentration, Culture, Heal, Leatherworking, Listen, Metalsmithing, Occultism, Persuade, Religion, Search, Spellcraft, Spot
• Expert:
  Alchemy, Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Carpentry, Culture, Disable Trap, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Listen, Lore, Metalsmithing, Occultism, Pick Pocket, Religion, Set Trap, Speak Language, Spot.
  Use Magic Device will be available as a cross-class skill. [1]
• Invoker:
  Alchemy, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Culture, Heal, Leatherworking, Listen, Lore, Occultism, Open Lock, Parry, Persuade, Religion, Search, Spellcraft, Spot
  Use Magic Device will be available as a cross-class skill. [1]
• Mage:
  Alchemy, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Culture, Heal, Leatherworking, Listen, Lore, Occultism, Persuade, Religion, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot.
• Magician:
  Alchemy, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Lore, Occultism, Religion, Search, Spellcraft, Spot.
• Priest:
  Alchemy, Balance, Carpentry, Concentration, Heal, Leatherworking, Listen, Lore, Metalsmithing, Occultism, Religion, Search, Spellcraft, Spot
• Spellblade:
  Animal Empathy [2], Balance, Carpentry, Concentration, Leatherworking, Listen, Lore, Metalsmithing, Occultism, Religion, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble
  Use Magic Device will be available as a cross-class skill.[1]
  Escape Artist will be available as a cross-class skill.[3]
• Warrior:
  Balance, Carpentry, Culture, Heal, Intimidate, Leatherworking, Listen, Metalsmithing, Parry, Search, Speak Language, Spot, Taunt, Tumble
  Escape Artist will be available as a cross-class skill.[3]

[1] UMD would only be available full-class to the Rogue path within Expert or the Beguiler path within Spellblade.
[2] Animal Empathy will be available to all as cross-class, but only Ranger path will get it as a full skill. Non-rangers cannot "tame' wild animals (have them become a henchman) but pacifying them applies, and it will be used to treat handling of Pets. (think hunting dogs, falcons, etc)
[3] This represents that a warrior or spellblade may have some training in getting out of bad situations, but it isn't a given - and they wouldn't be as proficient as say, a rogue.