Closed Discussion: Depiction of Sensitive Subjects

[Maiyannah]

I don't need to go over what's happened elsewhere, and the intention isn't to arbitrate what I feel about that again anyways.

But I do feel, in light of that, there's a good conversation on how we as a community feel we should handle controversial scenes. While we cannot anticipate every single thing that make someone uncomfortable, I do think as reasonable adults roleplaying in an adult horror setting, we should spare a thought to how we would like to approach establishing consent and ensuring that those involved in scenes are comfortable with them, or given means to leave if they are uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

[wilkins1952]

Simplest solution to me is two fold. Firstly before any big organised event such as player/DM event an OOC message detailing roughly what themes might be explored. (E.G //Hey people this is going to be a sacrifice to the nature gods so expect blood, Gore, Depictions of people being slowly killed and tortured.) Then give people a few moments to tap out if they want with zero consequences for their PC. This should cover 95% of cases for the rest a rule that //Stop sent in chat means that the scene is stopped immediatly and the players OOC talk about what's causing someone to feel uncomfortable. Then the PC in question is again given an out that ends up with zero consequences for the player. Or the scene is adjusted slightly to gloss over what is causing the discomfort if it's something minor.

I'd also state another suggestion but more for the DM side of things is to try not to go for easy "Shock and Horror." Gothic Horror is largely about sublty. And sure you might have quite graphic scenes but the large majority of the Horror in Ravenloft is what you don't see/know. Rather than what you do.

[Maiyannah]

I mean, there is a valid point about "a scene with many players cant afford to grind to a stop all the time."

To this I'd propose make it a general rule that if something is uncomfortable, everyone has a right to just bounce. We're here to have fun exploring these themes, and placing people in emotional distress is not that fun.

Content warnings is just a good practice. Obviously we can't cover something, and we should probably have a general disclaimer on the server about blood/violence - but things that go beyond the pale of normal fantasy violence should probably be preceded with a quiet OOC moment of "hey, this is going to depict graphic torture" for instance.

With regards to shock elements, yes, that's a very good point. There's also a very good passage from Heroes of Light that's worth repeating here:

Mood
If theme is the big question or idea behind a campaign, then mood is how you choose to phrase that question at the moment. Mood serves two purposes. First, it allows you to put the players in the right frame of mind to relate to the adventures and NPCs you have created. [...] Second, mood is the tool that lets your return to the underlying theme without seeming repetitve, since even similar thematic material can be presented fresh each time by the utilization of different moods.

Mood is an especially delicate science in a heroic campaign. The DM must walk a fine line between presenting the dark ambiance of the realm, while at the same time not inundating the players so much that they feel their characters have no choice but to succumb to the evil around them.

Temptation is one thing, but constantly feeling that no good can come of anything the characters do is a quick way to turn the players off to your game for good, and that's all too easy to do if mood is applied incorrectly. Just keep in mind that, as with themes, moods are generally all about details and flourishes, rather than heaping on layer after layer. Having every NPC the party encounters throw a punch at them creates an angry mood indeed, but it will also leave the players feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. Likewise, it can be extremely difficult to get the players to settle down to a serious and brooding adventure if all they've dealt with so far is a number of heroic, fast-paced adventures. Remember, it's alright to make the characters feel swamped, but making the players feel that way is a recipe for disaster.

Bolded emphasis mine.

[Talis]

I think people feeling comfortable with departing is good enough. I also think a basic tone guide is good, too. Just as you might say: "We don't abide homophobia in roleplay," you can say things like "acts of extreme violence need to be tastefully described unless someone has opted-in and it is a more private scenario. Less can be more."

People could also put anything they're point-blank not comfortable with in their character descriptions.

[Maiyannah]

I think it's best to avoid situations where people expect people to read descriptions or profiles; experience with Emma elsewhere has told me that often people just don't - and creating an expectation that goes against player habits is just going to cause friction.

I do think it's a good idea to encourage people to discuss controversial stuff prior to depiction in scenes.

I also think it's a good idea to establish what we want for a tonal "common ground" - ie the stuff to just expect period. Certain amounts of blood and violence, given its an RPG, for instance. That's part of why I wanted to get people's thoughts.

(With regards to homophobia and other stuff like that, I don't actually mind it - done tastefully, and between consenting roleplayers. I wouldn't want to see it in public though, just asking for trouble in that case.)

[Ouroboros]

Beyond a certain population size, catering to each individual player as a DM becomes borderline untenable; not everyone is going to be able to mentally keep track of which players are okay with what subject matter, etc. In turn however, assuming consent for contentious subject matter isn't a solution I think is suitable.

My personal approach to these things is that, if I'm touching on something that I suspect might be cause for concern, but I still believe is worth narratively pursuing in spite of the difficulties involved, I generally just offer a brief overview of what's ahead in the coming days for my players and adjust accordingly if anyone has issues with it. I normally suggest keeping both an open public forum and open private door policy; that way people as a communal group can weigh in together on a given thing, or approach me in private if they're not comfortable with the first approach.

For the purpose of DM events, this is fairly easily dealt with; disclose what general subject matter is expected to be involved in your plotline. Those that choose to become involved are, in turn, acknowledging and consenting to the subject matter therein.

For the purposes of public content, I'd suggest setting general guidelines as to where the line is drawn on 'public content', IE what might be encountered in an open area scene. Given the setting's tendency towards the dark, accepting public scenes of violence, torture, injuries, murder etc are more or less a given, though the particular detail offered up is significant; emoting that someone is hung to death is one thing, but graphically emoting the tendons of their neck snapping, their flailing attempts to survive in spite of their injuries, going into detail about their failing bodily functions and soiling of themselves, etc, is probably beyond the pale for public facing content, as an example.

Everyone will draw different lines and that's fine; but setting the server's standard for what people can reasonably expect to bear witness to/be involved in seems an important first step.

As to people bouncing from a scene; the sole detractor is whether that character reasonably would suffer negative consequences if they remained present from a scene that the player is abdicating from. But considering the other side of that coin is that real people might suffer real personal distress, I'm inclined to just make it a blanket rule that at any time if a player wishes to duck from a scene, be it for OOC reasons of content or because they have real life obligations, they are free to do so, with the caveat that if a player makes it a frequent habit of doing so at convenient times, they may simply not be ushered back into plots as a result. But that's a scenario I expect to rarely, if ever, become relevant.

On specific contentious subjects such as depictions of homophobia, racism, sexism and all the other myriad dysfunctional behaviours of the world, my stance is ultimately; 'if it fits the narrative and is done tastefully, sure'. But again, everyone's personal perspectives on this will vary. Will I mourn eternally over the grave of possibilities lost if we outright ban some/all of the above roleplay behaviours? No, not in the slightest. Whether the enrichment I feel from those things being possible outweighs the personal distaste and discomfort of those negatively impacted by the same however, I would take the default position that other people's personal well being takes precedence.

[wilkins1952]

I think this is a good overall ruling then

1) Content warnings before DM/Player events giving brief detail on what's going to happen and people the option to opt out.

2) A rule that if players wish they can leave a scene OOCly without any repercussions if something does become uncomfortable for them

3) DMs avoid going for easy shock and horror scenes that add little to the narrative and are just there because "Gothic Horror is about bad things and we always have one up ourselves."

[Maiyannah]

Beyond a certain population size, catering to each individual player as a DM becomes borderline untenable; not everyone is going to be able to mentally keep track of which players are okay with what subject matter, etc. In turn however, assuming consent for contentious subject matter isn't a solution I think is suitable.

[...]

For the purpose of DM events, this is fairly easily dealt with; disclose what general subject matter is expected to be involved in your plotline. Those that choose to become involved are, in turn, acknowledging and consenting to the subject matter therein.

Having plot summaries and content warnings before them when it comes time to opt in is probably a good practice for the specific plot arcs. I think we're in agreement here.

For the purposes of public content, I'd suggest setting general guidelines as to where the line is drawn on 'public content', IE what might be encountered in an open area scene. Given the setting's tendency towards the dark, accepting public scenes of violence, torture, injuries, murder etc are more or less a given, though the particular detail offered up is significant; emoting that someone is hung to death is one thing, but graphically emoting the tendons of their neck snapping, their flailing attempts to survive in spite of their injuries, going into detail about their failing bodily functions and soiling of themselves, etc, is probably beyond the pale for public facing content, as an example.

For me as a story-writer a good piece of advice I received when working on my first book from my friend whom edited it, is this: "Detail can do a lot to bring a scene more alive - but it also provides a lot of distraction for the reader. You're best served getting into fine detail only where it enables the narrative, otherwise it just bogs things down." - this is true in the context of dealing with sensitive subjects too, as well as in the context that how graphic things are is a lot of what will determine how much it offends these sensibilities. We don't need to have women being used for the right of first night in the public eye to establish how much of a fascist shithole Falkovnia is, for instance.

As to people bouncing from a scene; the sole detractor is whether that character reasonably would suffer negative consequences if they remained present from a scene that the player is abdicating from. But considering the other side of that coin is that real people might suffer real personal distress, I'm inclined to just make it a blanket rule that at any time if a player wishes to duck from a scene, be it for OOC reasons of content or because they have real life obligations, they are free to do so, with the caveat that if a player makes it a frequent habit of doing so at convenient times, they may simply not be ushered back into plots as a result. But that's a scenario I expect to rarely, if ever, become relevant.

By the by I trust everyone here to be sensible roleplayers, but we should design any system around mitigating bad actors. I think writing people whom are abusive of this out of plots is a good enough disincentive to stop them. If it becomes enough of a problem that this isn't an effective disincentive we can revise things at this point.

On specific contentious subjects such as depictions of homophobia, racism, sexism and all the other myriad dysfunctional behaviours of the world, my stance is ultimately; 'if it fits the narrative and is done tastefully, sure'. But again, everyone's personal perspectives on this will vary. Will I mourn eternally over the grave of possibilities lost if we outright ban some/all of the above roleplay behaviours? No, not in the slightest. Whether the enrichment I feel from those things being possible outweighs the personal distaste and discomfort of those negatively impacted by the same however, I would take the default position that other people's personal well being takes precedence.

I would take the position that if you do this roleplay in private and people are okay with it, there is no issue. I would not want controversial RP in the open, I have no desire to become one of those server.

[Maiyannah]

I think this discussion can be considered part of the overall discussion on the general conduct rules we are now having, so, as to not split the discussion further comment can go there: viewtopic.php?t=28