Open Discussion: Player Housing

[Maiyannah]

Hi all,
This has become an evergreen topic on the discord so much as we can have one, so I thought I'd create a topic here.

One of the design goals of this server, in comparison to others, is to create a world that feels like it is living and breathing. Not a "MMO theme park" but rather a world that has real people and real environments that create the impression that people actually live in them.

Obviously, there are compromises that are made, and the engine has certain limitations as well.

One system I do want to have is a system for player housing, so that players can have a place to hang their hat, store their stuff, and most importantly, have a RP backdrop they can claim as their own.

There are two suggestions on the technical side of implementing this:

1] We can program a persistent rental system. This would be dynamic, allowing certain empty houses, likely sprinkled across Zeidenberg and other hubs, to be rented (or perhaps even bought) by certain players. This is the system adopted in a few other places, but has a few concerns. First of all, we would have to devise a way to dynamically allow placeables. This is a non-trivial both amount and difficulty of programming, from looking into it, because the engine's tools for this could be charitibly described as "jank".

2] We have do what Sigil does, and allow players to pay an in character cost to have a submitted house/room/etc attached to the module. This only really needs a developer to link a submitted area to the module, and allows much more freedom in customisation to the player in terms of placing objects and being creative. This does exclude people whom don't get on with the Aurora editor or nwnedit however.

As far as the mechanics side of this, I would like to have "purchases" and "rentals" both possible. A purchase would be a large up front cost for a permanent implementation. A rental would be a monthly cost to upkeep and if they lapse the rental would be lost after a certain grace period.

Both would be subject to revocation/seizure by the authorities if players get on the wrong side of the law. We can place some in the frontier or other appropriate places to be had for players that will want to avoid that (Gunarakite rebels, etc)

Let me know your thoughts!

[wilkins1952]

I think that having rentals be persistant and something purchased ingame but the interior is set "As is." So to speak is the best way to do that, Would also allow for rentals to be used for more than just homes could have Inns that a player can rent to work and run, Fighting arena, and Stage for performances.

Then for people that wish to purchase/Granted via DM plot a home/Estate and so on, This will be made either by the player or a Dev and then put into the module. All the player would have to send over would be the ERF and then a Dev just has to link the Transitions and set up the keys to be handed to the player once the coin has been taken.

[Maiyannah]

I think that having rentals be persistant and something purchased ingame but the interior is set "As is." So to speak is the best way to do that, Would also allow for rentals to be used for more than just homes could have Inns that a player can rent to work and run, Fighting arena, and Stage for performances.

That seems reasonable enough, though I don't like the idea of rentals being completely unable to change. Perhaps we could levy a (non-refundable) fee for changing them at player request.

Then for people that wish to purchase/Granted via DM plot a home/Estate and so on, This will be made either by the player or a Dev and then put into the module. All the player would have to send over would be the ERF and then a Dev just has to link the Transitions and set up the keys to be handed to the player once the coin has been taken.

Yep its not hard to do at all. I think I'll probably adopt a weekly module update schedule when we're out of the basic development, so that we're not having the game world be too unstable. So you pay and it goes in the next update after when the devs look at it. So long as we're not asleep at the wheel, that'll be fine.

[wilkins1952]

I can agree to that and more as is being static in terms of the size and shape of the rental, Interior placeables shouldn't be too hard to add a system that lets players put down stuff like tables/Chairs and so on. Or even just having to request a Dev to do so for the next update yeah, But I think largely that is the best way to go about things. Though as for the question on how much to charge, I think rentals should be fairly cheap but buying a house should be quite expensive as a way to not make it exclusive but some target that your char wishes to achive. Perhaps 1-2 million in cost. Would also encourage people to build houses together as well.

[Maiyannah]

Though as for the question on how much to charge, I think rentals should be fairly cheap but buying a house should be quite expensive as a way to not make it exclusive but some target that your char wishes to achive. Perhaps 1-2 million in cost. Would also encourage people to build houses together as well.

One consideration is that actual ownership of land would only be allowed to citizens, in Barovia, though we can handwave it with leases and that kind of thing (local noble actually owns it, but its on lease to the player).

I'd probably reward players of Core locals by having their costs lower, saying that they don't need to pay all the fees and grease all the palms an outlander would have to, to get houses.

Also worth considering that player factions will probably want locations to be their faction base. We can probably handle them with the same kind of system and just make it more expensive for larger domiciles, however.

[wilkins1952]

Yeah, Setting size limits is also a good idea. So for example a commoner/Outlander might be limited to something like a 3x3 home, But a member of the Nobility or someone who ICly has done something of note via plot might be allowed up to a 9x9 Perhaps even allowing for interior transitions as well. As for Factions, Easy enough to have them be the same rules just have a set size max of say 6x6 And then charge more for that. Shops I considered that it would be best to have a Rental sort of system where someone rents a "Box." To sell out of in a market square.

[Maiyannah]

Yeah, Setting size limits is also a good idea.

I think money can mostly be the limiting factor here, as well as availability. We have more than enough "room" in just the map for Zeidenberg to fit plenty of player houses. The other limitation can basically be "your house externally is so and so size, so your map has to fit in this."

As for Factions, Easy enough to have them be the same rules just have a set size max of say 6x6

I'd say the same for factions though I'm actually okay with player factions of sufficient size having, say a keep or something. I do think getting larger land plots would be something that would be part of like, a DM plot with a lot of roleplay surrounding their acceptance into higher society, so we can police it that way. They are of course free to buy a normal house and use it that way too.

A concern I would have is like, one player starting to buy up everything, but since the system would be through DM/admin approval, we can just watch out for that.

Shops I considered that it would be best to have a Rental sort of system where someone rents a "Box." To sell out of in a market square.

Yeah, that's preferable. We will probably have a place that is a central market that people are basically using stalls in, which have a container they sell out of. A consideration is that whereever we place this is going to end up being a central hub of activity, but that's a concern of placement, not implementation.

[Ouroboros]

So, I'll begin by outlining the best implementation of player housing which I've seen in NWN/NWN2, which is NWN 2 Sigil. First, they require an in-character amount of gold to be paid, per 'cell' of space used, with a maximum limit employed to stop people making an absolutely sprawling base. Second, the player is required to remain relatively active; as long as they're logging in every month, their housing remains on the module. Third, it's a limit of one indoor area per person, no matter how many characters they have. Fourth, no scripts, NPCs, shops. Fourth, you must either build the area yourself, or have someone else do so for you. There was a bunch of extraneous stuff such as specific pricing rates varying depending where the entrance was, additional gold costs to update the residence, extra entrances, etc.

I think this is a good baseline to work from, because it more or less addresses a lot of the issues in having player housing. The gold cost, personally, I think can be thrown out the window in exchange for requiring roleplay from a person/group seeking to have the area made, but I'm not overly tied to that idea.

I'd also suggest having a division between player housing and player businesses; that way if people want to have a private venue for behind closed doors roleplay, they have their house, but for open door roleplay, they can maintain a business. Implementation difference between the two can also take the form of housing requiring people to submit a module build to be added in, but businesses would be prefabbed rentals; this reduces overhead, keeps the door open for people whom aren't willing to build in the toolset for a house or pay someone else to do it for them and also allows us to separate things out; having a 'trade district' where rental businesses are, versus 'residential'. Keep the 1:1 ratio rule for players owning housing and businesses, one of each for one player. Rental businesses would be devoted storefronts with actual interiors, as opposed to people running a market stall.

[Maiyannah]

So, I'll begin by outlining the best implementation of player housing which I've seen in NWN/NWN2, which is NWN 2 Sigil. First, they require an in-character amount of gold to be paid, per 'cell' of space used, with a maximum limit employed to stop people making an absolutely sprawling base. Second, the player is required to remain relatively active; as long as they're logging in every month, their housing remains on the module. Third, it's a limit of one indoor area per person, no matter how many characters they have. Fourth, no scripts, NPCs, shops. Fourth, you must either build the area yourself, or have someone else do so for you. There was a bunch of extraneous stuff such as specific pricing rates varying depending where the entrance was, additional gold costs to update the residence, extra entrances, etc.

Not actually against NPCs in and of itself to represent say, a house servant, but we'd have to consider how to regulate that sensibly if we opened that can of worms. At the very least theyd have to pay them monthly, people don't work for free.

I'd also suggest having a division between player housing and player businesses; that way if people want to have a private venue for behind closed doors roleplay, they have their house, but for open door roleplay, they can maintain a business. Implementation difference between the two can also take the form of housing requiring people to submit a module build to be added in, but businesses would be prefabbed rentals; this reduces overhead, keeps the door open for people whom aren't willing to build in the toolset for a house or pay someone else to do it for them and also allows us to separate things out; having a 'trade district' where rental businesses are, versus 'residential'. Keep the 1:1 ratio rule for players owning housing and businesses, one of each for one player. Rental businesses would be devoted storefronts with actual interiors, as opposed to people running a market stall.

I'm fine with the limit being per-character, otherwise this hamstrings characters into having a single character who has a residence etc in a sensible fashion and none of their others can. That makes little sense to me; remember that since this is an application process, devs have to put it in kind of thing, we can make sure one player isn't buying up everything. And it's easy to cheese and just get a dozen CD keys or something anyways, part of the nightmare of trying to enforce rules on a PW.

As to the distinction between businesses and housing, that seems sensible enough to me.

[wilkins1952]

Yeah Given that this would require Dev overview I think we can be pretty relaxed on the specifics and just have a general "If you have an idea for your player house bring it up in your application and we can chat about it." mentality that way stuff like NPCs/Secret doors/Any other suggestions players have can be looked at and see what we can do.