Closed Discussion: ECL

[wilkins1952]

So Regarding ECL, Personally how I think it should be done is any Char with ECL can still level to 30 class levels and get all the same Class rewards. However once they hit ECL 30 any XP after that should have to come entirely from RPXP.

Example of this would be ECL 3 PC

At level 25 they are ECL 28 and thus can earn XP from the same sources a level 28 would be able to.

At level 29 however they would be ECL 32 and thus the only source of XP would be RP.

[Ouroboros]

I'm personally not a fan of the ECL system; it's a 3.x standard that results in dysfunctional systems where a given race's stats are not at all in line with their prevalence throughout the setting; Duergar for example have an absolutely insane statline with completely cracked out abilities, yet they aren't masters of the Underdark when nothing else really comes close to their abilities.

I would personally rather see all relevant ECL races adjusted to be in line with other races; that way people don't feel incentivised to play a specific ECL race for powerbuilding purposes and are instead pursuing them for roleplay reasons. If certain races come with spell like abilities, such as Duergar, balance it out by just giving them malus'd statlines rather than the ECL penalty system.

[Maiyannah]

I'm inclined to make subraces cosmetic-only, personally. This removes the min/maxing element from race selection - or at least minimizes it - and makes it so that people are playing the subrace because of the themes it presents, not because they want mechanical benefit.

[Ouroboros]

The sole issue with making subraces purely cosmetic is that some races throughout D&D have canonical access to spell like abilities. Having more or less bonuses in ability scores is something that can be handwaved away, but innate spell abilities is harder to explain, unless we're branching out into the realm of ToUD Canon stating that all abducted PCs lose their innate spell like abilities.

It could be argued that for a number of the more contentious races like Drow and Duergar, losing their access to innate spell like abilities or spell resistances is a tradeoff for getting a 'cleanish slate'; being possibly able to engage with society where, in their own settings, they'd have been shot on sight.

[Maiyannah]

You can make arguments both for and against that, so I defer more to which we collectively think works best, but I think at least subduing abilities so we can eliminate the need for ECL is a better approach than having to juggle ECL. ECL makes everything a mess.

[wilkins1952]

I think that keeping the abilities themselves is a good idea and just have ECL be a Soft cap rather than a hard one. Cause at the end of the day. Min Maxing 99/100 the best race to pick is human for the additional Feat and skill points at least in 3.x.

That said if we were to make them just cosmetic I'd not be entirely against that either. Just For me at least I like the option of variety and to have unique builds/RP options that subraces allow.

[Ouroboros]

No ECL is my preference. Awful system that just creates problem after problem after problem. I'm open to the 'all races are cosmetic' option, but we'd still need an explanation as to what happened to all their innate features like Drow Spell Resistance, etc.

[Maiyannah]

A reasonable compromise would be making the subrace have non-ECL versions of them that replace the normal racial abilities with their own special, subdued versions.

I would have to see if this is technically feasible, but at first blush it should be: racial abilities outside of the starting stat spread is implemented with a feat that can be removed and replaced with a subracial one.

[wilkins1952]

Another way to perhaps deal with this is ignore ECL, And still keep these races per PNP with all the abilities, Instead if someone is intentionally powerbuilding abusing the subrace just to get a mechanical advantage without RPing them properly then treat that like we do with the multiclassing rules.

[Maiyannah]

Not sure I like them having all of those abilities without some sort of disadvantage. ECL is trying to do that, but its not really a great system.

I'm given to, for each subrace, choose one or more of their special traits to keep, enough that it isn't OP, and replace the base race stuff with that.