Closed Discussion: Multiclassing rules

[wilkins1952]

Should there be any multiclassing limitations or rules. Personally I think let people play what they want, Sure there are some very broken builds in NWN but the fact of the matter is no matter how challenging the content is by the nature of the game there will always be ways to cheese/Solo/Duo content if you try hard enough and trying to balance around that is pretty much impossible.

[Maiyannah]

I am of the opinion that we should allow multiclassing openly - provided requirements such as alignments for Paladins for example - and merely have a rule that you must have at least a few levels in the class by the time you're "high level"

My main problem with multiclassing is the idea of "dips" - spending very little in a class in terms of levels to get a tremendous result. "Rogue dips" for instance.

[wilkins1952]

I'm okay with DIPs if they are in the Main classes but yeah perhaps a rule that all PrCs have to have at least 5 levels in them. As a way to stop people dipping them for stuff like HIPS/Arcane Archer Damage bonus. And encourage High level Rogues and the like by giving them a few optional feats in the late game. 15+

[Maiyannah]

The "rule of thumb" I would suggest is: multi-class freely so long as you take at least three or four levels, and it fits the roleplay of your character.

[Maiyannah]

A suggestion Ouroboros had in the discord I just remembered:
We could have brackets for different classes and construct rules around that. Like maybe you can freely do whatever within "divine spellcasters" but it would be more restricted if you were a "divine spellcaster" and took a martial class second.

[wilkins1952]

Hmm maybe though that might also be needlessly restrictive in some situations, Also doesn't stop the broken builds such as Monk/Druid and Monk/Cleric but I mean those two are pretty much the exception. Might be best for now just to not have any rules and then add if we need to going forwards.

[Maiyannah]

Monk anything is broken, in my opinion.

Here's the question though: in a primarialy PVE environment, where I imagine we will be roleplaying the majority of PVP ... is a broken build a bad thing?

[Ouroboros]

As I've said in the prior Discord discussions; my concerns aren't so much with mechanical balance, as narrative and thematic sensibility. Having a character with one level in seven classes and the lion's share in a main class is rarely, if ever, representative of a character's pursuits or continued development. It's players minmaxing for optimal gameplay, at the expense of roleplay. I'm fine with minmaxing, but if it comes at the cost of your character being the living embodiment of multiclassing multiple personality disorder, that is where my focus will be.

Expounding on my earlier suggestion; rather than creating very specific rulesets such as 'Monks, Paladins and Sorcerers may not multiclass' just because they make ridiculously broken builds, I'd suggest creating thematically impactful roles that can comprise multiple classes under their heading, with some overlap here and there. Examples being, the Religious Subset, which has Paladin, Cleric, Druid and Monk, the Magician Subset which has Sorcerer, Wizard, Druid, Bard, the Brawler Subset which has Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, etc.

Create various subsets which people may freely multiclass within for the base classes, then stipulate a character can draw from say, two Subsets in total, but if they ever want to multiclass into a PRC, have that PRC require you only have classes from one Subset. So if someone multiclasses Wizard from Magician Subset and Cleric from the Religious Subset but wants to take Pale Master, Pale Master requires you exclusively have the Magician Subset.

There are of course other ways to tinker with this system, but what it provides primarily is thematic consistency and that's what I'm interested in. You can fine-tune the specific Subsets being employed for balance concerns, such as with Monk, but I'd rather alter how the classes function instead of relying on multiclass restrictions to stop them running roughshod over content.

[wilkins1952]

Create various subsets which people may freely multiclass within for the base classes, then stipulate a character can draw from say, two Subsets in total, but if they ever want to multiclass into a PRC, have that PRC require you only have classes from one Subset. So if someone multiclasses Wizard from Magician Subset and Cleric from the Religious Subset but wants to take Pale Master, Pale Master requires you exclusively have the Magician Subset.

Hmm While I get that, There are some deities that would accept a Cleric/PM/Wizard so perhaps a better suggestion is to just ignore Multiclassing for now and only look at it fully if it ever becomes a problem. I.E People start going Silly with it, But then at that point it's a player issue rather than a class issue. Still the Subset is quiet interesting, I think it also might be needlessly limiting.

[Maiyannah]

The core concern I view here is that people are taking choices for their mechanical benefit rather than as a narrative advantage. In this, I think mechanical limitations are not an effective method of limiting it. I think a more effective tool in my past experience has been rewarding players whom do roleplay well and consistently. People whom want the best thing tend to be directed by that to improve their roleplay - or sit and complain that they dont get those toys, but I'm comfortable with ignoring the latter cohort.

However, I would say that one way to mitigate the amount of "class collecting" is in enforcing the traditional (optional) 3.5e rule of limiting multiclasses to 3 classes. It is this rule which is why NWN was designed around that, ultimately, and I do think it keeps the amount of that kind of messy build down.

This isn't a hard limit since the Beamdog patch, and scripting can overcome it, so we can bonk players whom we trust not to abuse it with a DM wand or something.